1. Intro & Guest Introduction

• Philip Su is one of the rare engineers who rose to Distinguished Engineer (IC9) at Meta.
• He shares insights from his career at Microsoft, Meta, and OpenAI, his experience collaborating with Mark Zuckerberg and John Carmack, and lessons on career growth.

"He is one of the few people who actually made it to Distinguished Engineer — IC9 — at Meta. That level is three steps above Staff."

2. Early Career: Growth at Microsoft

The Secret to Fast Promotion

• Learning a great deal from great colleagues and managers
• Extreme working hours:

  "In my first year at Microsoft, I kept a sleeping bag in the office. I set an alarm for 3 a.m., coded, went back to sleep, then got up and coded again."

• Emphasis on the three factors: luck, talent, and hard work

  "I think fast career growth comes down to three things: luck, talent, and working harder than everyone else."

Overwork and Its Relationship to Growth

• Long hours have their limits, but they are effective for accumulating a lot of experience in a short time
• "I've heard that surgeons do 36-hour shifts partly because it means they get to perform that many more surgeries."
• That said, balance with other parts of life (relationships, health, etc.) must always be considered

3. Switching Between Manager and IC Roles

Why He Became a Manager and the Difficulty of the Transition

• "When I was young, I thought managers were more respected, so I became one. But in practice I've gone back and forth between IC and manager many times."
• Transitioning between manager and IC is not easy.

  "Many people find it hard to go back to IC once they've become a manager. I was willing to accept a level drop to make it work."

Voluntary Demotion

• "I voluntarily went from Facebook London Site Director (E9) down to an Oculus IC role (E7)."
• "I felt it was much more comfortable to work at a level I could handle, and it was also fairer to my colleagues."
• He honestly addresses the real difficulties: ego, compensation, and career setbacks

"When your level drops, someone you used to manage may become your manager. In that situation, instead of pushing your own opinions as you did before, you have to actively support the new leader."

4. Roles and Influence at Each Level

• As levels increase, the scope and quality of impact change
  • E5–E6: influence over a team of 10–15
  • E7: driving technical direction for a team of ~50
  • E8–E9: 100+ people, strategic decision-making, qualitatively irreplaceable impact
• Quantitative (team size) + qualitative (leadership, vision, communication, etc.) differences

  "E8 and E9 are like getting tenure as a professor. You become that level when your peers recognize you as one."

5. Founding the Meta London Office and Organizational Culture

Building the London Office

• Personally selected 12 key people, each required to commit for at least 2 years
• "The former director of Google London told me, 'Your landing team needs to stay for at least two years.'"
• Prioritized hiring culture carriers who could each independently lead projects

"When selecting those 12 people, I made sure to ask not just the candidate, but also their colleagues and managers: 'Can this person be a positive cultural influence?'"

6. Collaborating with Zuckerberg, Boz, and John Carmack

Zuckerberg and Boz's Drive to Grow

• "Zuckerberg and Boz had a genuinely strong desire to grow and improve themselves."
• "I saw Zuckerberg consciously working to stop a habit of looking down during AMAs."

John Carmack's Genius

• "John Carmack would join a codebase six months in and immediately provide spot-on feedback."
• "He'd casually toss out performance improvement ideas nobody else had thought of."

Leaders Who Multiply Team Strength

• "Someone like Scott Renfro was a true 'force multiplier' — he elevated the capability of the entire team."
• "When he did PR reviews, he never shamed anyone for mistakes; he helped everyone grow."

7. Career Pivot: Joining OpenAI and Why

• After leaving Facebook: developed nonprofit software, became interested in social issues (income inequality, technological unemployment)
• Reason for joining OpenAI:

  "What I learned at Facebook was that if you're not number one in the market, you're better off not going anywhere. The market leader has the cushion to recover from failure."

• OpenAI's talent density:

  "OpenAI had the most talented engineers I had ever worked with anywhere."

8. The Power of Writing and How to Improve

• "When I was young, I didn't understand the value of writing. But by reading good writing and revising my own work repeatedly, I got better."
• "Virginia Woolf said, 'To write well, you must read well' — and that is absolutely true."
• "Many of the pieces I've written have gone through many rounds of revision. When I come across a great expression in someone else's writing, I make a point to remember it."

9. Work, Growth, and Life Balance

The Career Growth Curve

• "When I was young, I ran faster than anyone — but with experience, you learn to run in the right direction."
• "An experienced person can quickly detect when you're heading the wrong way, and they understand the importance of the whole team moving in the same direction."
• "Physical energy declines, but insight and leadership can keep growing."

Growth and Mistakes as a Manager

• "At 24, I had to fire a 40-year-old employee. I was too immature — honestly, I wouldn't have wanted to work for myself back then."
• "I've always struggled with giving feedback, and I'm still practicing that even now."
• "But I believe I can motivate people well when I believe in the team and feel passionate about the work."

10. Generalist vs. Specialist

• "Most people are better off not going all-in on a single specialty too early — try a variety of experiences first."
• "Specific skills can become obsolete, so specializing too early can be risky."
• "Generalists tend to shine at startups; specialists tend to shine at large companies."

11. Advice for Those Earlier in Their Careers

"Roy Disney said, 'When your values are clear to you, making decisions becomes easier.' It's important to first reflect on what you really want."

"I achieved my goals too quickly, and then went through a period of depression because I didn't know what to do next. Imagine what your life would actually look like once you've reached what you want."

"If you go all-in on your career, other precious things may break. Think carefully about whether that's truly the path you want — and whether you're prepared to sacrifice everything else."

12. Closing & Recommendations

• Recommends the Peak Salvation podcast:

  "It captures the experience of working in an Amazon warehouse while grappling with automation and income inequality. I hope people will think together about the impact of technological change on society."

• "I hope today's conversation is helpful to many people!"

Key Takeaways

• Career growth: luck, talent, effort, the experience curve
• Manager ↔ IC transitions: voluntary demotion, flexibility, managing ego
• Impact at each level: quantitative + qualitative, irreplaceability
• Organizational culture: key hires, culture carriers, long-term commitment
• Leadership: drive to grow, team motivation, feedback
• Generalist/Specialist: startups vs. large companies, risks of early specialization
• Life advice: clarifying values, balance, finding what you truly want

"In the end, the most important thing is being honest with yourself about what you truly want — and what you're prepared to sacrifice for it."

"More than the speed of your career, what matters is whether you're heading in the right direction, and whether you can protect the things that matter most along the way."

"The definition of success isn't something others set for you — it's something you define yourself." 🚀